HBO/Max has new hit series with It: Welcome to Derry, expanding the universe of the blockbuster horror film adaptations of Stephen King’s best selling novel It. I had the opportunity to sit down with series editor Esther Sokolow and co-creator/director Andy Muschietti to discuss horror storytelling and exploring the depths of King’s iconic book.
Jack Molloy Legault, Matilda Legault, Clara Stack, and Mikkal Karim-Fidler star in “Welcome to Derry.”
Source: Warner
Welcome To Derry, Muschietti, Sokolow – By The Numbers
It: Welcome to Derry enjoyed the third-biggest premier ever for HBO Max. King’s work is enjoying a strong resurgence lately, including qualitatively, and this prequel to It is definitely in that latter category. You can read my review of the show here.
(Another great Stephen King adaptation is the new film The Running Man, which is currently in theaters, and you can read my review here.)
Esther Sokolow previously worked on the two feature film It: Chapter Two with Andy Muschietti, and then on the grossly underrated The Flash. In addition to her film editing work, she was also an in-house VFX editor on the films Guardians of the Galaxy and San Andreas. So her ability to intertwine those experiences has served her well in an effects-heavy series like Welcome to Derry.
It’s notable that during production on the show, Sokolow sometimes did storyboards of scenes during filming and as part of the editing preparation/process, something we talk about in the interview below.
Andy Muschietti worked as a storyboard artist in the early 2000s. This provided him additional nuanced perspective and work at editing and sequencing scenes, shots, and story/character moments. Sequencing is often the biggest weakness I see in storytelling and filmmaking, but it’s a weakness that isn’t present in the It movies, or in The Flash, or in It: Welcome to Derry. The story structure is bone-deep solid before the rest of the details and arcs were built on top of it.
It: Welcome to Derry didn’t just tap into the story and into the characters. People love Stephen King of course, but the series doesn’t just rely on “people love this,” it taps into why they love it. And all of that is on the screen all the time.
Welcome To Derry – The Interview
So without further ado, here is my interview with Esther Sokolow and Andy Muschietti about their team-up on It: Welcome to Derry.
ESTHER SOKOLOW: Well, [this is] just exciting to have it. We’ve been working on it for two and a half years, and when you make it, it’s ours. And then when we put it on the world, it belongs to everyone else, and it’s no longer ours anymore.
And it’s so beautiful that people actually want it to be theirs, and and are lifting it and and appreciating and seeing the level of care and detail, and the Easter eggs and things we’re hinting at. It’s just been really an amazing few weeks for us.
MARK HUGHES: [P]eople love Stephen King’s books, and the bigger they are and the more in-depth they are, the more it just pulls us in [and the more] he goes into the history, you’ll find out stuff. It might not be relevant to the literal story, but, you know, it’s there. We love that, and you get that.
ES: We want you to check in and go, I don’t know who I’m meeting, maybe I will never visit this character again, like the girl putting the love note into the locker. I’m loving people going, “It’s Beverly’s mom!” I’m like, it’s also just texture…
[Director Andy Muschietti joins the interview. After greetings and a brief discussion about Flash and Batman, we continue…]
MH: I’d love to hear you talk about the fact that you were sequencing in-camera, you were storyboarding on set. I know, Andy, you have a background storyboarding and Esther, you have you were doing storyboarding like on set in scenes.
ANDY MUSCHIETTI: Yeah.
MH: This is something I don’t feel like enough people appreciate, how unique and how amazing that is…
AM: You know, it’s for me, it’s like, I made a living as a storyboarder when I was in film school, and a few and a couple of years later, you know, as I was like directing commercials, I was still doing like all kinds of storyboards.
And my approach to storyboard has been looser and looser every year, on every project over the years, meaning I storyboard things that are– there’s a first storyboard, which is the one that you designed to appease basically the desires of production. Because they’re all scrambling to know how much this is going to cost, you know, how long are we going to spend on set?
So there’s one first storyboard that, I do it like by opening obligation. Even before the scene is, like, crystalized in my mind. But it’s fine, because they know that there will be a lot of work involved, but at least they have a base to start with.
And then what I usually do is, once everyone is kind of in the same page and the day approaches, if there’s something specific about how the scene should be shot, I do a new storyboard the day before.
And many times what happens is, I do a storyboard on the day, which is once I worked with the actors and we did the rehearsal of the blocking and everything. I get such a more clear idea of what is going on, forget about what was on my mind…
[So] I do need to see all the elements unfold, before I make decisions to where the camera goes, how the camera moves. I think it’s a little, in my case, it’s very personal, but I think it’s a little adolescent to think that you will arrive with all the answers of the camera before knowing what the content is, you know, what the actor is doing, what the nuances of performances are. So I liked that, to arrive to the set with that ability to be surprised and understand what’s really going on, before making all these decisions.
Of course, everyone is already playing on the sandbox. There will be no big surprises, most of the days. Like, “Okay, I need a fire truck in the middle of the living room.” That’s not going to happen. And I’m very conscious when that happens. I don’t aim to get away with those things. Sometimes they happen. But anyway, that’s my approach, my approach to storyboarding now that you mention it.
MH: I love the idea of doing this work and on the one hand, the sequencing, knowing what’s happening in the story and where you need to be to capture the moments, but then also leaving open that, by doing that, you allow the freedom in the scene to let yourself be open to capture whatever’s happening, and to change. So everybody has plans that shows up.
AM: You need a plan. Definitely need it.
MH: The way that you do it in both movies, the sequencing… I feel like [the films were] almost the proof of concept for what you’re doing in this show… you’ve really dived into the story and you know people want people come to Stephen King books. They don’t want short Stephen King books. They want to live in that world. They come there and they want to be lost for days in those chapters, to live there.
You’ve got this huge world. You’re kind of spreading and growing organically, and you’ve got to have the plans for that, but you also have to have the room to find out and surprise yourself. And I appreciate how much you’re taking that time and the editing is really crucial and doesn’t get enough attention, I feel like.
MH: Esther, I’d love for you to talk at length about how those decisions were made, and those choices in the moment, choosing, like, we need to do this instead because this is what we’ve discovering and left the room to discover that on set even.
ES: Well, I mean, Andy touched on this, but he comes to set with such an open mind, and with such an energy of allowing people to discover and bring ideas to him. And that same, like you describe, the childlike wonder of discovery he brings to editorial, too.
And, you know, we’ve talked a lot about – and you guys have talked in the press — about how episode two we actually shot before the strike. So we had done episode two, three, and four, and then we got shut down because of the strikes, which was challenging and heartbreaking in so many regards. But it offered Andy and me this incredible gift of exploration creatively.
So with episode two, one of the things we got to discover in post was the inner cutting of the Patty Cakes in the cafeteria sequence. And I think that sequence was such a testament to Andy letting the actors play and discover something that they could bring to the table for him, and then really letting Marge go into this descent of madness in that performance.
I mean, I remember watching the footage and you could hear Andy in the background, you know, going “More raspberries! Slam your desk! Now pull up, do this!” And it just created this feeling of mania on footage, and yet the children were so safeguarded. And then I got to find something that wasn’t scripted in the footage that he had gifted us. That was really exciting to work with.
AM: That brings up something. It was really a journey of discovery on all phases, you know, because the Patty Cakes moment was not scripted, so we discovered it by improvising with the girls there.
And then, of course, Esther found this thing that was unscripted, and it’s like, I assumed that it was like stimulating and it gets you, I don’t want to speak for you, Esther, but it puts you on a different place.
ES: Completely.
AM: It more exciting because it’s challenging, of course, because it’s like, wait, this is not it’s on the script. Let’s’s see how it’s done. And the idea of intercutting, I wasn’t thinking of intercutting, actually, it came from an editorial and it’s genius. Now I see it, and every time I see it it’s like, wow, that was a great idea.
MH: Yeah, it’s brilliant… [T]hese characters, you have a lot of scenes where they’re living the life of that character, so we’re not just seeing the moments where the plot affects their life… Esther, you mentioned earlier, the love note in the locker and these things that are like, this is just things in their lives…
Is it easier, especially for the younger actors, living more in that skin to then kind of improvise and naturally know how their characters are going to react and behave? Because that cast is young, but they’re doing a lot of really remarkable [acting]… you can already imagine like, well, they’re going to be getting Oscars in the future.
ES: I mean, it’s a testament to how wonderful Andy is with these child actors. He really makes them feel incredibly safely to discover the characters.
You see the footage, and he’ll give them throwaway lines that are never meant for me to cut, but just if you’ve got nerves, shake off the nerves. Like, lines are just a line on the page, become the character. You’re going to say something goofy. You’re going to say something real. And then by the time you get to the actual line, you’re not overthinking it and you’re not worried.
I was asked last night at an event, you know, if it was a challenge to cut the child actors. And really, like, I was just cutting performance. These were real people to me on footage, and that was a testament to how Andy is so gifted at working with these children.
You can see that too.
AM: And at that age, they feel compelled to play, you know, to play in the most playful sense of the of the word. So they welcome the freedom most of the time. And of course, they are they are young, but they are very smart. So, you know, in our previous talks, we talked about the character, the arc of the character. So when they arrive to the set, they know the boundaries of the character, personality, an arc, a through line and everything.
So they have already a sandbox. And from there on, I feel with kids at that age, they’re much more excited to improvise than adult actors in general. Well, there’s different kind of adult actors, right? But there’s some actors that are like, “No, but we didn’t talk about this,” you know? It’s like, “Stop, stop, stop. What are you telling me?”
But there’s an age, they don’t give a s**t, because they are so excited by the challenge, bringing things to life and make it fun and everything. So, yeah, that I appreciate about about this cast in particular, but in general working with kids. I’m referring also to the kids in It, which is exactly the same case, you know?
And then when they become teenagers, and they feel that they are more serious actors, then that changes things a little bit because now they have to act. So it’s playing versus acting many times. That doesn’t mean that the acting is not successful. And I’m not talking about these kids in particular, but the self-consciousness and the fears of doing it wrong also play into it when they become adults.
MH: I know the stories that you’re pulling from include the interludes [from the novel], but also doing original things, and you’re doing the chronology backwards, which I love and it makes me think about Memento and how you could do it forward, but then by the time you get to people in the 1950s finding out, it’s like, we found that out two seasons ago. Whereas doing it in the reverse way, you get the surprise.
But that’s hard because a lot of stories will try to do that, I’ve seen stories try to do the flashback approach for the reveal where it would have been better to tell it forward. There’s only certain contexts, and knowing when it works and why to do it. Like you could have in the It movies… you mostly dived into each part and let it live and breathe.
But here, the way you’re doing it across three seasons… you’re simultaneously moving forward with the story each season, but saving and preserving so they’re reacting to it. And I know you’re still going to have plenty of surprises that weren’t revealed too.
AM: I just want to add that there there’s this very specific reason why we’re telling the story backwards. So it’s different than the movies, where flashbacks have their dramatic purpose and everything. This is, there’s a reason why we’re telling me backwards. I can’t we cannot talk about it yet. But it’s there.
And it’s in the genesis of the project. And when I pitched it to Stephen King, it made sense to him. Maybe… we’ll get a bit of glimpse of information, why we would be telling the story we are telling the story backwards. But that’s all I wanted to say.
[We discuss The Flash and DC movies and compare pacing approaches in that film to pacing in Stephen King projects.]
AM: People don’t know, because they shouldn’t, how much of what you’re talking about happens in the added room. As I said before, the excitement of moving forward and “I got this!” and basically calibrating the excitement of the audience, it all happens in the added room.
ES: I wanted to say, Jason Ballantine cut It and Chapter 2, and then Paul Machliss and Jason cut The Flash. And I have to say, Jason and Paul are just the most spectacular editors. When Andy and Barbara asked me to come on the show, I really felt Jason’s presence on my shoulder and that obligation I had, the pacing that he and Andy had set, I wanted to do right by Jason. I wanted to do right by Andy, but I was like, I gotta make Jason proud, I got to like make sure that I’m honoring the legacy that he and Andy have established together.
And, you know, I spent a lot of time studying those films. I mean, I worked on It: Chapter Two, worked on The Flash. But during the first month when we were shooting episode two, I would be near set, editing dailies, going to Company 3 to finish The Flash with Andy, going home, watching the first and second It films, and then driving to work, listening to the book on podcasts on audiobooks.
So it was like constantly assessing both Stephen King’s words, and how Jason and Andy had arced the pacing in the films.
AM: I’ll say it now because then I’ll forget, but I have to like really, really say how proud I am of this– how committed Esther is to the source, to understanding the story and the characters, and her commitment to the story, apart from the act of editing and giving shape to the story and scenes and everything, there’s an incredible commitment to the book and to understand everything, even the things that are not needed.
And I find it super important, because sometimes I’m talking with Esther, and Esther just brings up things that are not either present on my mind or fresh in my mind, and it’s a great collaboration in that sense. She understands the book, and we’re two different brains, and it’s like, it really completes each other.
MH: It feels very different. And looking at it again, you get a very clear sense that the editing was taking place frequently, like especially those first two episodes, it’s simultaneously exciting and dynamic to hear how it was being done, but [in a way] it’s not surprising, that’s why I talked about it in my review, the fact that like you can feel it happening in-camera. And that these, that it’s being done the process, and the relationship and how you’re working together…
Stephen King’s the master of horror novels. Like, he does it that way for a reason. Why does he do it? Not many people get it, though. And this is an original new [story], you’re taking Stephen King’s work and expanding it. Yet this is the project that I feel like most understands and represents how he tells his stories.
And I know you have your vision you’re putting it all through, and you bring your vision to it, but your vision feels much more informed by an understanding of the source material and not just the story and what the author wanted, but why people want it. Why does that matter to them? How does that matter? And intuitively making that happen… [You’re] making a whole new thing inspired by it, and it’s maybe the most Stephen King thing we’ve seen.
AM: Esther, apart from everything that I mentioned, she has a very good pulse on social reaction and everything. So that’s really admirable to me, because I don’t know, I don’t read it, I don’t have Twitter. I think apart from Instagram, which is like sort of inevitable, but Esther has a broader, much bigger understanding of what this is causing on people.
ES: I’m reading all of that. I’m definitely lurking. I come in and go, “Andy, they got our breadc crumbs!”
AM: Even before we released the show, you know? Esther cares a lot about what people are expecting, what people love, and having that as a reminder all the time is important.
MH: Is there anything that you want to add or to mention?
ES: I would love to just, since we talked on the cafeteria sequence, I would really love to give gratitude to my amazing assistant editor Janie Gatty. She has been such an asset and a collaborator in our creative process. She was in the room for every single note session that Andy and I did together.
And it was actually her suggestion to do that intercut, and it was one that it was such a good idea that I had her take the first stab at it, and then I worked it from there before we brought it to Andy. But it is such a gift to have that level of collaboration.
I mean, because I started with Andy as an assistant editor, knowing that other people were allowing me a larger voice in spite of, you know, an assistant classification. I just really wanted to make sure that I mention Janie and express my extreme gratitude for her creative endeavors on the project.
AM: For me, I just want to say, to go to the edit room with Esther is always very exciting, because I know that there will always be something that I don’t expect, and that’s really great. It’s very stimulating to go to the edit room, you know.
And I know that there’s a lot of people that don’t have this kind of experience, filmmakers that go through the editing process like like it’s some kind of predicament So it’s miserable and everyone’s miserable. That’s not the case, and I give it to Esther to just keep it alive all the time and exciting, and her engagement is really inspiring to me.
ES: It’s all about creating a safe space, you know. I think the chair helps a lot. We’ve had the same Andy chair on four projects now. Take it with us on every show. So he knows really like what to expect when he walks in.
And then we got books, we got posters, we got things for kiddos. Like it’s all about making that space feel safe and supported, you know. And my job as an editor is a tool. Like, I’m there to support Andy to give him options, to allow that creative exploration. So I want that to be a safe and welcoming space.
AM: Yeah, that’s problem solving. It’s not something that you to take for granted when you’re working with editors. I mean, they all have different levels of ability to problem solve. But Esther is like 100%, you know? There’s something that doesn’t work, and she will do anything that she can to find a solution, even beyond editorial, you know?
I mean, editorial of course, but that implies like the participation of other departments. How many times do you also writes voiceovers and ADRs?
ES: Oh, yeah.
AM: She’s very, very good at it, and it’s not something that you can take for granted, because a lot of editors don’t care about those things. Someone has to do it. No, Esther does it herself.
ES: [Laughs] A lot of ADR on my phone. Just voice memo after voice memo after voice memo.
AM: We are written and performed by Esther. [In these] performances she really commits, you know? It’s like, well, now we have to go and kill this f***ing clown. [Laughs] No, no, it’s really in character every time. It’s very fun.
My thanks to It: Welcome to Derry editor Esther Sokolow and co-creator/director Andy Muschietti for taking time to speak with me and answer my questions.